ANNOUNCER: NPR.
[COIN SPINNING]
[THEME MUSIC]
DARIAN WOODS: This is The Indicator from Planet Money. I'm Darian Woods.
WAILIN WONG: I'm Wailin Wong.
ADRIAN MA: And I'm Adrian Ma. We take a little pride in having our econ nerd credentials. And every once in a while, we think, why not put these credentials to the test by having a little competition, a little friendly competition we like to call the Indicator Quiz Bowl?
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
MA: Today on the show, it's a trivia match-up between our own Darian Woods--
WOODS: Hello.
MA: --and Wailin Wong.
WONG: I'm shadowboxing. You can't tell, though.
[CHUCKLING]
MA: So the way that this will work is, I'll ask five questions. Whoever gets the right answer will get a point for that. And the winner will be the person with the most points at the end of the show.
WOODS: Simple enough.
MA: Today's Indicator Quiz Bowl topic will be the economics of the public sector, a.k.a. government economics.
WONG: Oh. Does Darian have an unfair advantage because he's worked in the public sector pre-NPR?
WOODS: Ooh. But in New Zealand. So--
WONG: [LAUGHS]
WOODS: --does that transfer? We'll find out.
WONG: Don't you also have a degree in public policy from an American university? [LAUGHS]
WOODS: Nobody at the Olympics complains that the other person's been training too much.
WONG: All right, let's find out after the break.
MA: OK, Darian and Wailin, here is your first question.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MA: Which economic concept describes the situation where individuals benefit from a public good without contributing to its costs, thus undermining incentives to pay for that good?
WOODS: Free rider.
WONG: Oh, my gosh.
MA: That is the correct answer.
[BRIGHT CHIME]
WONG: Oh, man.
WOODS: I'm relieved.
WONG: Ugh, you are so fast, Darian. My brain was, like, buffering, buffering, buffering.
[LAUGHTER]
WOODS: You got to talk to your internet service provider for that.
WONG: No, I have to talk to my brain.
[LAUGHTER]
WONG: It's not going fast enough.
MA: Free rider is the correct answer. And, you know, in a free market system, you wouldn't necessarily expect private companies to take up certain services or goods because they could be susceptible to this free rider problem. And that's why, for example, you have governments stepping in and doing things like providing for the national defense.
WOODS: Yeah, I mean, it would be hard for-- I don't know-- a private military to go around every household asking for contributions.
WONG: Goodness. [CHUCKLES] I never answer my doorbell, ever.
[LAUGHTER]
MA: OK, one point for Darian. Next question.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MA: The Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 is the foundation of antitrust policy in the United States. What was the name of the company that was part of a landmark anti-monopoly case in the early 1900s?
WOODS: Standard Oil.
WONG: Standard Oil. Oh, gosh.
MA: I've got to give that to Darian again.
WONG: Really?
MA: The answer was Standard Oil.
[BRIGHT CHIME]
WONG: What if it was just the lag?
WOODS: Maybe it was the lag.
WONG: Oh, my gosh.
MA: Here's some trivia about Standard Oil. It was officially declared an illegal monopoly in a landmark 1911 Supreme Court case called Standard Oil Company of New Jersey versus the US. In that case, the court ruled that Standard Oil violated the Sherman Act by restraining trade and commerce in petroleum, and it also established the, quote, "rule of reason antitrust precedent," which still lives on today.
WONG: Was this covered on The Gilded Age? I haven't watched that show.
MA: [CHUCKLES] That is going to be its own episode.
WONG: Season? Oh, OK. Spin-off. [LAUGHS]
MA: Yeah. Question number three.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MA: What do you call a market intervention that levies a tax on a market transaction that creates a negative externality borne by individuals not directly involved in the transaction?
WOODS: Pigouvian tax.
MA: That is the correct answer.
WONG: Oh, my gosh.
[BRIGHT CHIME]
WONG: You said it so fast, I didn't even hear the answer.
MA: Pigouvian tax.
WONG: Pigouvian tax. OK, I think that I would not have been able to come up with even with more time.
WOODS: And Dr. Arthur Cecil Pigou, Cambridge economist.
WONG: OK. Stop showing off.
WOODS: Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm the most hated quiz contestant ever.
WONG: No, I love it, actually. I love it. [LAUGHS]
MA: That is three for three for Darian.
WOODS: This is my revenge for the movie trivia--
WONG: The movie one, for sure.
WOODS: --episode where Wailin just swept the floor.
MA: So that is the correct answer. Some examples of Pigouvian taxes include things like carbon taxes, taxes on tobacco, or the plastic bag tax at your local grocery store.
WONG: Mm.
WOODS: Send your complaints to Arthur Cecil Pigou in Cambridge about 100 years ago.
WONG: Yeah. I was going to say via psychic medium.
WOODS: Yeah. So does that mean I've won the majority of the five questions?
WONG: Well, Darian, I'm just here for the learning. So if you just want to make it about points, I guess we can do that, but I'd like to keep going.
WOODS: All right. Yeah, let's go for it, more education.
MA: Yes, I think that sounds fair. Darian has technically won a majority of the points, but there are other reasons to play trivia. And not all of them are about points.
WOODS: Some of them are trivial.
WONG: Some of these about salvaging my dignity, if I can get one of these-- answer your questions right.
[LAUGHTER]
MA: Question number four-- what's the term for the built-in budget mechanism that can adjust federal spending and taxation during an economic downturn to keep the economy afloat without the need for additional legislation?
WOODS: Automatic stabilizers.
WONG: Ugh.
MA: That is correct.
WONG: Oh, my gosh. And I did a whole episode on automatic stabilizers.
[LAUGHTER]
WONG: Ooh, dear.
WOODS: And I listened to that in my preparation.
WONG: Oh, my gosh, Darian. [LAUGHS]
WOODS: I've been training for this my whole life.
WONG: Clearly!
MA: Some government programs with automatic stabilizers include unemployment insurance, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, also known as SNAP, and also Medicaid. So these benefits are boosted during times of recession where incomes fall. And the opposite happens when the economy is experiencing a boom.
WOODS: Right, less people are on SNAP because more people are employed, and there's less need.
WONG: And I had done this episode about how some economists want to have, like, national or statewide baby bonds programs that would also potentially kick in, in, you know, fallower economic times. Well, clearly, all that reporting did me a fat lot of good here [LAUGHS] on this show.
MA: If we just pretend the quiz starts now--
WONG: [LAUGHS]
MA: --anything could still happen.
WOODS: [LAUGHS] Match point for that one point.
WONG: All right. I'm ready, I'm ready. [CHUCKLES]
MA: OK, final question.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MA: Universal basic income is a policy often associated with the political left. But free market economist Milton Friedman in the 1960s advocated for a more free market version of this that became influential among some on both the left and the right. So what was that alternative?
WOODS: Negative income tax.
MA: That is correct.
[BRIGHT CHIME]
WONG: Oh, my goodness gracious. [LAUGHS]
WOODS: I like this game.
[LAUGHTER]
MA: So a negative income tax, as Milton Friedman envisioned it, would essentially have the government provide individuals below a certain income with money. The structure he had in mind made it so people who work made more money than people who received just the negative income tax benefit. And he also believed that this system would essentially replace all welfare programs in the US someday.
WOODS: Both. And actually, the earned income tax is not too dissimilar. It's different, but it's the same idea that when you earn below a certain amount of money, you will get some money from the government.
WONG: OK, well, Darian gets a bonus point for extra learning. Now the score is 6 to 0. [LAUGHS]
MA: No, did you know the answer?
WONG: No. I don't-- I think I would have needed, like, a little bit more time to think, you know? Darian has all these--
WOODS: [INAUDIBLE]
WONG: --facts at his fingertips. And I need to, like, sit here and, you know, let the organ grinder monkey in my head run around a little bit more. [LAUGHS] I did know the Standard Oil one right away, but Darian was faster.
MA: In any case, let's not take away Darian's well-earned win here.
WONG: Yes, yes. And let's not dwell on the past, shall we?
[LAUGHTER]
MA: Darian Woods, 5 out of 5 on this Indicator Quiz Bowl. That makes you the reigning champ for today.
WOODS: Yep. I want to thank all my economics and public policy tutors and my wonderful colleagues who have taught me a lot of what I know today.
WONG: I need to go back and listen to our back catalog more. [LAUGHS]
MA: Listeners, I hope you enjoyed playing along. Tell us how you did and what you think about the Indicator Quiz Bowl by sending us an email, indicator@npr.org. Or if you're listening on Spotify, leave us a comment.
WOODS: From The Indicator team, Happy Thanksgiving. We'll see you on Monday. This episode was produced by Corey Bridges with engineering by Kwesi Li. It was fact-checked by Sierra Juarez. Kate Concannon edits the show. And The Indicator is a production of NPR.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Copyright © 2025 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.
Accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts may vary. Transcript text may be revised to correct errors or match updates to audio. Audio on npr.org may be edited after its original broadcast or publication. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.