Utah Gov. Cox called for civility after Charlie Kirk’s murder. Did America listen?
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
We have a follow-up conversation with Spencer Cox. He's the governor of Utah, where the activist Charlie Kirk was murdered in September.
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SPENCER COX: Please, gentlemen, I get the microphone, so.
INSKEEP: Cox gave an update on the investigation and then said a little more.
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COX: Over the last 48 hours, I've been as angry as I have ever been, as sad as I have ever been.
INSKEEP: He urged Americans to reflect on the path they've been following.
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COX: And I would encourage people to log off, turn off, touch grass, hug a family member, go out and do good in your community.
INSKEEP: His words provoked a powerful reaction then. So how does he think Americans are responding now? We met with Cox during an event that's on brand for him, a bipartisan meeting of the Western Governors' Association in Arizona. For years, he has championed political civility, or as he puts it, disagreeing better.
COX: We have to decide, is this an off-ramp? Are we going to take an off-ramp, or are we going to continue to hate each other and foment that type of tribalism that leads to these very dark deeds and evil moments?
INSKEEP: Have you seen any signs that anybody is taking the off-ramp?
COX: Yeah, I actually have. I was shocked at the response from that moment. But here we are now months later, and the response continues to be overwhelmingly positive, hearing it from all corners of the nation of people who are desperate for something different.
INSKEEP: Spencer Cox is 50. He's from a small town in Utah and has a self-effacing style. During our video interview, somebody said I had a hair out of place and he referred to his own lack of hair.
It's all good.
COX: You know, Steve, some of us don't have that problem.
INSKEEP: (Laughter).
COX: I mean, there are some downsides for sure, but there are a few benefits I'd like to point out.
INSKEEP: He's a conservative governor who has also embraced pragmatism. And he quoted a constitutional scholar to explain why.
COX: We keep thinking if we just win this election, we'll never have to work with those people. And the Constitution, as Yuval Levin writes so eloquently, says that we'll always have to work with those people. That's how this gets done. We have to build coalitions.
INSKEEP: In your speech after the assassination, you also said there is one person responsible for this act. What were you trying to say?
COX: Look, it's very easy to demonize entire groups of people. But I don't think that's a long-term strategy. I don't think it's particularly effective, and it also happens to not be true. Every single Democrat I know that I talked to about this was just appalled by what happened. I think it's important, in my faith, we believe in agency. We believe that we are responsible for our own decisions and that other people aren't responsible for those. And so to try to attack an entire group of people or an ideology because of one person isn't right and isn't fair. And that's what I was trying to explain.
INSKEEP: What did you think about in the days afterward when the administration said they were going to investigate liberal groups for encouraging violence, or however they would phrase it?
COX: Sure. Look, if there are groups out there that are encouraging that type of violence, then we should hold them accountable. But again, for me it's just important that we focus on who did this, holding that person accountable, and then doing what we can to make sure that it doesn't happen again.
INSKEEP: Some people will know you did not vote for the president in 2016, did not vote for him in 2020, and then endorsed him in 2024.
COX: Correct.
INSKEEP: In a way that's particularly meaningful for our discussion. If I can summarize.
COX: Please, yeah.
INSKEEP: After the assassination attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania, you said the president's survival was a miracle and spoke to him directly and said, only you can unify the country now. Has he?
COX: I think if you were to ask him that question, he would say no. (Laughter) I don't think that's happened. And yet, I have an opportunity to have a relationship with the president. And I think that's very important to me. It's very important to Utahns. I will tell you that after that press conference that you referred to earlier, he was one of the first people to call me. He told me how much he appreciated that press conference, especially the part at the end, which was the part that you and I are talking about.
INSKEEP: Yeah.
COX: Now, again, he hasn't modeled that. And he sees the world a little differently than I do. But at least I can have a conversation with him and at least he's willing. Again, he appreciated what I said, and that meant something.
INSKEEP: The difference in the world view is that he sees his political adversaries as enemies.
COX: There was this interesting moment in the Charlie Kirk memorial. You heard Erika Kirk forgive the shooter. One of the most powerful, most Christian moments I had ever experienced. And then there's this very revealing moment. The president - and he got panned for this. I actually give him credit for it, where he said Charlie was always trying to get me to forgive my enemies. And he said, I just can't do that.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I hate my opponent, and I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry.
COX: I appreciated his honesty in that moment.
INSKEEP: You appreciated that he said it.
COX: Yeah. Yeah.
INSKEEP: Not that you think it's the right way to be.
COX: And I appreciate that he owned it. And he would tell you, if he were sitting here today, that he and I disagree on that point. I believe that we are commanded to forgive our enemies, that it's part of our formation of who we are. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be held accountable.
INSKEEP: Yeah.
COX: But it does mean that for our own sake, it's something that we have to do.
INSKEEP: Because you say we are commanded, I want to ask, how much does your faith inform your politics?
COX: My faith is core to my politics. I think we make a mistake in this country. We talk about a separation of church and state, which is very important, and I believe in that. I believe that that was mostly intended for government not to interfere with religion, institutions. It doesn't mean we have to separate our faith from our personhood in public service or in any other way. So when Jesus tells me - by the way, I think this is the hardest commandment in all of Christianity. It's not just that we're supposed to forgive our enemies, but it's to love our enemies and to do good to them who hate us and despitefully use us.
INSKEEP: Spencer Cox says this fits in well with his duties as governor when he must serve even those who voted against him. In the months since Kirk's assassination, Cox has faced some criticism, including from the political right.
I'm thinking of a particular event. It was the TPUSA - Turning Point USA - event, the first one after Kirk's assassination. You appeared. You were introduced. Not all, but some of the audience booed.
COX: Sure.
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COX: We had several speaking events that day. And we...
(BOOING)
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I'm going to do...
COX: Yeah.
INSKEEP: What do you think that booing represents?
COX: Well, first of all, I love that we live in a country where you can do that. That's really important, and I think that's what Charlie stood for as well. We should go into places where maybe people disagree with us.
INSKEEP: In 2022, Kirk called on Republicans to expel Cox from the party for vetoing a bill banning trans athletes from girls' sports. That's why Cox was booed at that event. Although when he explained his reasons, the crowd applauded.
COX: I wish I would've had an opportunity to talk to Charlie about that. I never got that opportunity. But again, when I explained that to the crowd, I think their position changed.
INSKEEP: Spencer Cox says it's hard to talk through issues when politics becomes a loyalty test, a test of faith.
COX: We're looking for tribes somewhere, and we're finding that in politics. Politics is replacing religion. You know, I always like to say, if I don't have any real friends, at least we can hate the same people together on Facebook or TikTok. And that's no replacement for true conversation. And I think that's dangerous. And that leads to things like Charlie Kirk getting assassinated.
INSKEEP: Governor Cox, it's a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.
COX: Thank you, Steve.
INSKEEP: He's the governor of Utah and spoke with us at a meeting of the Western Governors' Association. We also talked about energy, AI and much more. And the full video is at the NPR app and on YouTube.
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