'We have to speak, we have to shout': Jane Fonda is still an activist at 87
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. My guest today is Jane Fonda. When she accepted the SAG-AFTRA Lifetime Achievement Award back in February, she used the moment to sound an alarm. Empathy is not weak or woke, she told the room, urging her peers to use their platforms for good.
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JANE FONDA: Have any of you ever watched a documentary of one of the great social movements, like apartheid or our civil rights movement or Stonewall, and asked yourself, would you have been brave enough to walk the bridge? Would you have been able to take the hoses and the batons and the dogs? We don't have to wonder anymore because we are in our documentary moment.
MOSLEY: Six months later, I'm talking with Fonda not about a new film or project, but about the path that brought her to that speech. Born in 1937 into one of Hollywood's most famous families, Fonda came of age when women were expected to be seen but not outspoken. Through the decades, Fonda found her voice. First on screen, where she went on to win two Academy Awards - in 1971 for "Klute," playing a New York City call girl trying to leave sex work and pursue an acting career, and in 1978 for "Coming Home," portraying a military wife whose husband ships off to Vietnam.
Fonda's career and life choices have rarely been predictable. In the '80s, she became an unexpected fitness mogul. Her first workout tape remains the No. 1-selling home video of all time. And through the decades, she's chosen to live a life of resistance - marching against the Vietnam War, supporting civil rights and Native American activists, and more recently as an environmental activist. In 2019, she held weekly climate demonstrations on Capitol Hill, where she was arrested five times.
Jane Fonda, welcome back to FRESH AIR.
FONDA: It's good to be back.
MOSLEY: I initially wanted to talk with you six months ago after the SAG-AFTRA awards ceremony where you won the lifetime achievement award, but I couldn't get you till now. So...
FONDA: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: ...Yes, I'm happy to have you here.
FONDA: Thank you.
MOSLEY: But that speech, the timing of it - it came one month after the inauguration. And there's something else you said in it. I want to read this quote.
(Reading) A whole lot of people are going to be really hurt by what is happening, what is coming our way. And even if they're a different political persuasion, we need to call upon our empathy and not judge but listen from our hearts and welcome them into our tent, because we're going to need a big tent to resist what is coming at us.
Who were you thinking about when you wrote those lines?
FONDA: Oh, I was thinking about all the people that live in the middle of the country - you know, what's called flyover country - people who used to belong to unions, that worked jobs that paid enough to buy a house and send your children to high school and college. And that's gone for them. When the rug has been pulled out from under you like that, you know, where does your sense of self, your sense of meaning, your self-respect - it - it's very hard, and you're going to be very angry.
You know, my dad came from Nebraska, from Omaha. And I've walked precincts in Michigan and Pennsylvania and Ohio. And, you know, people are really angry and they're really hurting, and so they voted a certain way. Seventy-eight million Americans did. All of them are not MAGA, you know? And when they realize that what they voted for has turned against them, that it's not what they thought, that prices are going to go up, health care, they're going to not be able to afford the medical care that they need and the food that they need and so on, you know, they're going to be looking for alternatives. And I think those of us - well, a lot of us in America have alternatives to offer. And we have to not judge, but we have to put forward a vision of what we think America should be.
MOSLEY: Do you feel like it's your duty at this age - 87 years old - to say these things, to speak, to still be an activist? 'Cause, I mean, you could be off on an island somewhere, just living.
FONDA: People say that, and I don't understand. How - I mean, I can't even imagine right now being on an island someplace. You know, I - there's a book I want to write, but when I write, I go inward. I - this is not the time to go inward. We have to go out. We have to speak. We have to shout. We have to find nonviolent ways to avoid what's happening, which is very - we're very, very close to becoming fascist in this country. I never, ever imagined that that would be the case. But it's beginning to happen, and we have to find ways to stop that.
MOSLEY: Do you see any parallels to today and the time when you first became an activist in the late 1960s, early 1970s? I can just imagine that there was a lot of fear and uncertainty in that time.
FONDA: I didn't feel fear and uncertainty. I had spent 30-some years not being involved in anything, not paying attention, not knowing what was going on. But at the age of 31, I lived in Paris. I was married to a Frenchman, a French director. And there were American soldiers who had been in Vietnam that left and came to Paris because they had turned against the war. And they were looking for American compatriots to help them find doctors, dentists, money, you know, whatever they needed.
And they found me, and I asked them about the war. And I could not believe what they said about what was happening, what we were doing to civilians, what - how Vietnamese felt about American soldiers being there, etc., etc. And I didn't believe them. I really believed at that time that wherever our soldiers were, we were on the side of the angels. And they gave me a book to read, Jonathan Schell's "Village Of Ben Suc." And when I finished the book, I closed it. I was a different person. And that's when I became an activist.
MOSLEY: I think...
FONDA: And I left France and moved back.
MOSLEY: Were you surprised then by the reaction of folks by your activism, you saying that the war was wrong at that time period? Were you surprised by the vitriol that people felt for speaking out?
FONDA: No, but it was painful. No, I wasn't surprised. I knew pretty much what was going to be happening, but I was part of a movement. I wasn't alone. That's really important, that we are not alone when we start to speak out. I wasn't always with people who were wiser than me and more experienced than I was, so I didn't always use the right words in describing what was happening to me. I used other people's rhetoric because - you know, I had just finished making "Barbarella." In fact, one of the first speeches that I gave against the war when I moved back here, the marquee on the theater said, hear - come hear Barbarella speak.
MOSLEY: And you were speaking about the Vietnam War at...
FONDA: Right.
MOSLEY: ...That time. Yeah.
FONDA: Right.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
FONDA: And, you know, it took me a while to learn to speak with my own voice, using my own words based on my own experience. And that's important.
MOSLEY: I want to play a clip of you from 1973. You're talking to a reporter in San Francisco about the cost of war, the killing of Vietnamese soldiers at the hands of American soldiers. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
FONDA: Are we trying to exterminate an entire people? What are - what have we become as a nation if we are trying to exterminate and if we call the men heroes that were used by the Pentagon to try to exterminate an entire people? What business have we to try to exterminate a people? My father fought against people in the second world war who were trying to exterminate a people. I don't think today we should repudiate everything that our fathers fought against or fought for in the second world war, repudiate the democratic ideals that our country was founded on, the things that our forefathers fought for 200 years ago, by making these men into heroes. They are not men we should be proud of.
MOSLEY: That was my guest Jane Fonda in 1973, talking about why she was against the Vietnam War and calling for it to end. And you famously or infamously traveled to North Vietnam to see for yourself what was happening.
FONDA: Well, I went to North Vietnam in 1972 because we had heard through the Swedish and French diplomats who had been to Vietnam that the U.S. was bombing the dikes in the Red River Delta. Now, the dikes were made of dirt 'cause they don't - they didn't have heavy equipment in North Vietnam. Peasants by hand built dikes to hold back the ocean because, like Holland, it's below sea level. But now we heard in spring of '72 that we were bombing the dikes, and it was right before monsoon season. What were we going to do? I mean, about 300 Americans had gone to North Vietnam before me over the years. It was not...
MOSLEY: ...Unprecedented.
FONDA: Exactly.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
FONDA: Good word. And I thought, yeah, but none of them were Barbarella. You know, if an actress formerly known as Barbarella went to North Vietnam, maybe it would get more attention.
MOSLEY: You understood your power.
FONDA: Yeah. Before I went, they asked me to list the things that I wanted to do and see, and I particularly said no interest in going to a military site. But at the end - I had been there for two weeks - my big mistake was going alone because I - you know, by the time the trip was over, I was like a wet noodle. I had seen and experienced things that changed my life. I mean, imagine you come from the most powerful nation in the world that has the mightiest military machine. You're in a country of peasants and fisher people - fishermen, mostly - with no heavy equipment. They have to rebuild by hand. And they were winning. That was hard to wrap my head around. What does it mean that this third-world country can defeat a country like ours? I had to rethink everything.
MOSLEY: You said how you told them you definitely want - don't want to go to a military base.
FONDA: Oh, yeah. So it's the last day. They asked me if I - they wanted to take me to the central square where Ho Chi Minh decades before had announced Vietnamese independence. That's where they took me. And there was an aircraft, anti-aircraft gun. There were no planes. It was not active or anything like that. And a group of Vietnamese soldiers sang me a song in Vietnamese about the Declaration of Independence. And then they asked me to sing, and I didn't know what to do. I sang "Oh MacDonald" or something stupid like that. But I was laughing and everything, and they offered me to sit down on the gun, and I did.
MOSLEY: It's an infamous picture. It still haunts you to this day. I mean, you've spent the last five decades apologizing for it.
FONDA: Yeah, it was a terrible mistake because it made me look like I was against Americans.
MOSLEY: Right.
FONDA: I wasn't there to be against - I was there to try to understand the war better and to stop the bombing of the dikes. That's the reason that I went was to stop the - and guess what? Two months later, the bombing of the dikes stopped.
MOSLEY: Were you able to reconcile with vets and folks who felt so betrayed and angry with you over the years? Have you been able to have those conversations?
FONDA: Yeah, I have. Lots of them. And, you know, I don't know whether it's because many vets are dead already. I mean, time has gone by, but now vets come up to me and thank me, thank God. It kills me that people think that I was against soldiers, but I did help end a terrible part of the war.
MOSLEY: You also went through a lot with the government during that time period. The CIA, the FBI, they all had investigations about you. They were following you. At its worst - what was it like at its worst?
FONDA: At its worst, it scared my children. At its worst, I mean, we had to have somebody remotely turn our car on in case it was a car bomb. We had smoke bombs thrown through our windows. We had our home ransacked and things like that. And it was traumatic for my children, and that was the worst part of it.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Fonda. She's a two-time Academy Award-winning actor, activist and author. Earlier this year, she received the SAG-AFTRA Lifetime Achievement Award, and she's also known for her decades of political activism. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
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MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Today we're talking to Jane Fonda about her life on screen and off, from her Academy Award-winning roles in "Klute" and "Coming Home," to her more recent work in the Netflix series "Grace And Frankie" and films like "Book Club" and "80 For Brady." She's also a longtime activist, leading climate demonstrations on Capitol Hill and speaking out on issues of democracy and equality.
Today, one of the things that you're focused on among many issues...
FONDA: I'm focused on one thing. Well, actually, two things - saving our democracy and confronting the climate crisis, and they go together. They're totally interdependent. We can't solve one without the other. You can't have a stable democracy with an unstable climate. You can't have a stable climate without a stable democracy, and they'll be solved together.
MOSLEY: In 2019, you were arrested five times.
FONDA: That's no big deal. My beloved friend, Martin Sheen, has been arrested 72 times. And I'm famous.
MOSLEY: Yes.
FONDA: You know what I mean? So - and I'm a privileged person. They don't treat me the way they would if I did exactly the same thing and I was Black. It would not be the same. And it wouldn't probably be the same now. If I got arrested now, it would probably be for five years, you know?
MOSLEY: Would you still be willing to put yourself on the line to do that?
FONDA: I don't know right now because I think that what I'm doing with my Jane Fonda Climate PAC is important enough for me to be sure I don't go to jail for five years. I have to keep doing this. This is important. We're focusing with my PAC down ballot; that is to say, governors, mayors, city councils, state legislators, county executives, state and local building a firewall, because this is where the real climate and democracy work is being done right now, on the state and local level.
MOSLEY: You know, Jane, you're kind of the most visible activist of your generation. But do you think that your generation also, to a certain extent, bore some responsibility for the moment that we're in?
FONDA: Yeah, I do. It's called neoliberalism. A lot of so-called Democratic leaders for the last decades, but particularly starting in the '80s, moved to corporate liberalism, you know, so that the Democratic Party seems to be kowtowing to its donors and moving to the middle, which is not what we need to be doing.
MOSLEY: How do you talk to your peers about it?
FONDA: Same way I'm talking to you.
MOSLEY: Yeah. Do you feel like they're listening? Do they hear you?
FONDA: Some do. Some don't. But, you know, a lot of voices are needed, not just mine. You know, to what you said just now, I'm the daughter of Henry Fonda, and Henry Fonda was an actor who did "12 Angry Men" and young Abe Lincoln and "The Ox-Bow Incident" and "Grapes Of Wrath." You know, the movies that he made. And as a child, I knew which movies were that he loved doing and identified with and represented who he was. I just knew that intuitively. And although I didn't become an activist until I was in my 30s, I view his films as fertilizer in the soil of my soul. It was there. I just needed to stir it up a little so the sprouts could grow (laughter). But he laid the groundwork, my dad did.
MOSLEY: Seeing your father's work, "Grapes Of Wrath," you know, "12 Angry Men," all of those iconic roles...
FONDA: Sticking up for the underdogs.
MOSLEY: Yeah. How did he feel about your Vietnam War activism?
FONDA: He hated it. You know, I remember when I left France and came back, I had no money. So I stayed at his house, my dad's house. And one day I went to - I don't remember what the prison was - to visit Angela Davis.
MOSLEY: Activist Angela Davis, yes.
FONDA: And when I came home and I told my father, you know, and he said to me, if I find out that you are a communist, I'm going to be the first person to turn you in. And I remember running to my room and just pulling the sheets over my head and crying. You know, I'm not an ideological person. I never have been. I'm not an anything ism. I don't know. I'm not a communist. I've spent a lot of time in communist countries, especially when I was married to Ted Turner, because he did what - he created the Goodwill Games. So there were games in Russia. Also, I made a movie in Russia when it was still Russia. So I've seen communism up close, and we do not want that, or the version of it that I have seen. And it's the worst thing for the environment.
MOSLEY: OK, little known fact about your fitness empire. You actually recorded that first tape because you were trying to fund your activism.
FONDA: Well, my second husband and I had started a statewide organization called the Campaign for Economic Democracy. The war had ended, and we began to focus on the economic inequality that exists in this country. So we focused on that. It was the beginning of the very apparent takeover of much of our economy by corporations, including agriculture. And a light bulb went off. I have to start a business. And it took us about a year to figure out what it should be, and it turned out it was the workout. So the money went to the Campaign for Economic Democracy.
MOSLEY: You got millions of people, mostly women, to work out in their living rooms, to live a healthier life, empowering women to put their relationship with their own body into focus and to think about the health. But you also had this relationship with your own body up until that point or around that point that was pretty awful.
FONDA: I suffered from an eating disorder known as bulimia. We didn't even have a name for it at the time. And I had very - it was really hard because I didn't know to go to a program or to talk to anybody. I just quit. And about a year later, I started the workout.
MOSLEY: Do you remember when you started to see yourself as you actually were and not this distorted picture of yourself?
FONDA: Well, it didn't happen overnight. And I can't mention one particular moment. But for those of us who grapple with body dysmorphia - and what that means is you don't see what's real. You see what you think is there. And I can't pretend that I'm 100% over that. I just don't act on it.
MOSLEY: Oh, what do you mean? Yeah.
FONDA: I don't try to starve myself. I don't try to do extreme things to try to be thinner than I am. I eat healthy now. And I can't imagine ever, ever having an eating disorder again. And it just feels good.
MOSLEY: Our guest today is Jane Fonda. She's a two-time Academy Award-winning actor, a bestselling author, fitness pioneer and activist. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF PATRICIO MORALES' "REALISMO MAGICO")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And today, I'm talking with Jane Fonda. She won Academy Awards for her roles in "Klute" and "Coming Home," redefined the fitness industry in the '80s with her workout tapes and has spent decades at the center of political protest, from opposing the Vietnam War to leading climate demonstrations on Capitol Hill. Born into one of Hollywood's most famous families, her father was Henry Fonda. She had a difficult childhood and came of age in an era when women were expected to be seen but not outspoken. It's a script that she's defied throughout her life.
Now, in the next part of our conversation, we briefly discuss suicide. If you're having thoughts of suicide, help is available by calling or texting 988, which is the national Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. Again, the number to call or text is 988.
MOSLEY: You had gone through this long period, really all of your life, based on what society had told you, based on what your father - your father used to say some pretty horrible things to you...
FONDA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...About your body.
FONDA: He objectified me, and he objectified women. You know, for all - one of the things that I've really learned is that our parents aren't perfect. Our parents are - have all the weaknesses that all humans have, you know? He wasn't perfect, but he was a good man. He had good values, and he did his best. And so I - you know, I don't feel anger or anything. It's - that's the way men of that generation thought about women.
MOSLEY: When...
FONDA: You know?
MOSLEY: ...Did you come to understand that - that he's of a generation and he's a good man, but he was a man of his time?
FONDA: When I got older. Not as old as I am now. No, I think probably in my 50s and 60s...
MOSLEY: After he had...
FONDA: ...I made peace with that.
MOSLEY: After he passed away.
FONDA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.
FONDA: And I think I'm going to have to pass away before my kids make peace with me because I certainly have not been a perfect parent. But I've done my best.
MOSLEY: Oh, it's so interesting because so much of your life and what you've talked about when people sit down and talk with you, it's about your relationship between you and your father, Henry Fonda, and then your mother, who passed away when you were 12.
FONDA: Well, she didn't pass away. She...
MOSLEY: She...
FONDA: ...Killed herself.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
FONDA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: She died by suicide.
FONDA: Yeah. She was bipolar.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
FONDA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: There's a documentary about your life that came out a few years ago. And in that documentary, your son says, I think my mother's No. 1 wound, the place that - by which she moves through the world, comes from that original ache and hurt of losing your mother at 12 years old. But you received this gift later in life. Were you able to read her medical records that gave you a deeper understanding of her, that helped you understand yourself?
FONDA: You know, even as a child, I knew. And I would say to myself, something happened to her - my mother - as a child, because I knew that there was something wrong. I knew that she didn't really love me or my brother, but my brother more than me 'cause she wanted a boy. But when I was writing my memoir, "My Life So Far," in the early 2000s, I got a lawyer to get her records from the institution where she was when she killed herself. And among the papers that I got was a - she must have been asked to write a little biography of herself. And I read that. And it turns out that she was sexually abused at age 7. And I could tell, reading this document, small - she'd been a secretary, so she knew how to type - small typing, single-space, very intense, what it was that had happened to her. She - I think she had, you know, mental issues 'cause her father was alcoholic and schizophrenic and paranoid and a problem. But then, to have on top of that being sexually abused had really affected her. Yeah.
MOSLEY: Put me in the time frame of when you were able to get those records. Where were you in life at that time?
FONDA: I was single. Ted Turner, my third husband, and I had separated, and I was writing my book. I had asked for five years. I said, don't ask me. You know, I don't want a quick deadline or - I'm going to take five years. And I was in the beginning part of the five years of writing my memoirs.
MOSLEY: What did that provide for you, to learn that information about your mom?
FONDA: I remember when I read it, I was alone in a hotel room, and I started to shake. I got so cold, and I got in bed and covered myself up. And I started crying. And all I wanted to do was take my mother in my arms and hold her and tell her how sorry I was, and that I understood and that I know she did her best. Yeah.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
You starred in this iconic movie "On Golden Pond" with your dad shortly before he passed away. And during that time period, through the script, through the movie, you were able to tell him and say some things to him that you all just couldn't say to each other in life. I just wonder - like, have more conversations come up for you in life as you've moved through these different eras in your life where you have the language to be able to say the things you wanted to say?
FONDA: I just wish he was still alive. I would talk to him in a totally different way than I would have before, but of course, you know, it's too late. But I think about that, how I would talk to him now, 'cause I never could before.
MOSLEY: Yeah. You were young. Yes.
FONDA: No, I wasn't young. It was just not the nature of our relationship.
MOSLEY: Right. Right.
FONDA: Nobody talked to each other, you know? I remember - and this is, I think, true of a lot of kids, you know, like me, who had that kind of a family. I would spend the night at friend's house, and it was like, oh, my God. People are all sitting at the table, talking to each other, asking how the day went, all these - you know, that's not my experience, but that's how I learned what was normal.
MOSLEY: My dad and I were not close, and he died several years ago. But there are still times where all of a sudden, like, the nut is cracked in my mind, where I think, oh, that's how I could have, like, broached the subject. That's how I could have gotten in there and had that conversation. Do you have those moments?
FONDA: No (laughter).
MOSLEY: Yeah?
FONDA: That's great.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
FONDA: I'm sorry that you've lost him. Mine aren't that specific - this is what I would do, or this is what I would say different. But I think about what I would want to say to him. Yeah, I do. But I think that it's really important. I think about my death a lot, and I think that that's very healthy. I think that thinking about death gives meaning to life, you know? At 60, I thought a lot about, OK, this is my last act. This is my - this is it. First 30 years, second 30 years, my last 30 years. What do I want to get out of it? I want to end it with no regrets, or at least as few regrets as possible. OK, that means, because if you visualize your death, I want to - none of us know how we're going to die, but it's good to have an idea. I want to be in my bed in my home surrounded by people who love me. That means I'm going to have to be sure that people love me. I have to earn some love between now and then during my third act. And my dad never spoke when he was dying. I want to be able to talk and give, you know, impart some thoughts and wisdom.
And so I've thought about all that. And so it guides how I live in these last years. I'm almost 88. You know, how I live so that I will get to the point that I want to get to when I die. I know where I'm going to be buried. I've worked it all out. Cremation is bad because it puts chemicals into the atmosphere. The idea of being buried in a wooden box is anathema to me. I'm going to be wrapped in a sheet and put in a hole next to my second husband...
MOSLEY: Oh.
FONDA: ...Who is buried in Santa Monica in a place. It's like a native field with native grasses and no headstones, and it's drought resistant. And I don't want the kids to have to go to different places to commune with us. And I believe we can commune with the dead.
MOSLEY: What an evolved way of thinking. Did you ever have a time period in your life, though, when you were afraid of death or, like, a midlife crisis or fear of getting old?
FONDA: Yeah, I was afraid of getting old before I even had menopause.
(LAUGHTER)
FONDA: And I wrote a book, and I lost my fear.
MOSLEY: You wrote a book about aging.
FONDA: Yeah. Yeah. The thing to do when you're scared, at least for me, is I make what I'm afraid of my best friend. I learn all about it. I wrap my arms around it and squash it to death (laughter).
MOSLEY: Why do you do that? Yeah.
FONDA: Because then I'm not afraid anymore.
MOSLEY: Yeah. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Fonda, talking about her life on screen and off. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF KYLE EASTWOOD, ET AL.'S "SAMBA DE PARIS")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Today we're talking to Jane Fonda about her life on screen and off. Earlier this year, she was honored with the SAG-AFTRA Lifetime Achievement Award, where she used her acceptance speech to call on her peers to reject complacency and stand up to power.
Jane, there's a part of that speech, that SAG speech, about the arts. And you say specifically that the arts has the power to create empathy, to understand a human so profoundly that you can touch another person's soul. And I always wondered this about actors. What makes one want to sit in those emotions? What is that like for you? What is it that you enjoy most about that?
FONDA: Oh, it's the most thrilling thing in the world. The whole process of getting to know another character so well that you respond spontaneously the way they would, not the way you would, that's just a joyful experience. You understand why they are the way they are deeply. You may play somebody who you don't like, you know, whose values don't reflect yours. But you get down to what made them human. What is the humanness in them? That's great. That's why acting leads to empathy.
MOSLEY: In '71, you played Bree, a New York City call girl in "Klute," directed by Alan Pakula. And to prepare, you spent about a week with real sex workers to understand their lives. What stood out to you most about that experience with them and the stories that they told you?
FONDA: Well, I mean, there were so many of them and so many stories. But the things that they had in common? The eyes were dead. All of them seemed to have had some essential part of themselves killed. At the end of the week, I went to Alan Pakula, the director. And I said, Alan, let me out of my contract. I can't do it.
MOSLEY: Why didn't you feel like...
FONDA: I don't think I can capture the death. I said, hire Faye Dunaway. And he just laughed. You know, so anyway, and the rest is history.
MOSLEY: Yeah. I want to play, actually, a clip. It's a famous one. It's one that we often hear with this movie. You're sitting with a psychiatrist who is trying to help you transition from being a call girl to being a respectable actor, which is what this character says she wants to be. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "KLUTE")
VIVIAN NATHAN: (As Psychiatrist) What's the difference between going out on a call as a model or as an actress than as a call girl? You're successful as a call girl. You're not successful...
FONDA: (As Bree) Because when you're a call girl, you control it. That's why. Because someone wants you. Not me. I mean, there are some Johns that I have regularly that want me, and that's terrific. But they want a woman, and I know I'm good. And I arrive at their hotel or their apartment. And they're usually nervous, which is fine, because I'm not. I know what I'm doing. And for an hour, for an hour I'm the best actress in the world and the best [expletive] in the world. And...
NATHAN: (As Psychiatrist) Why'd you say you're the best actress in the world at that time?
FONDA: (As Bree) Because it's an act. That's what's nice about it. You don't have to feel anything. You don't have to care about anything. You don't have to like anybody. You just lead them by the ring their nose and the direction that they think they want to go in, and you get a lot of money out of them in as short a period of time as possible. And you control it, and you call the shots. And I always feel just great afterwards.
MOSLEY: That was my guest today, Jane Fonda, in the 1971 film "Klute," which - you won an Academy Award for your portrayal as Bree. I think Roger Ebert said that "Klute" should have been named Bree. But is it true that all of those scenes with the psychiatrists were ad-libbed?
FONDA: Yes. We shot it - it was one of the last things that we shot. I asked Alan if we could wait till the end.
MOSLEY: Why did you want to wait to the end?
FONDA: When Bree was inside me. You know, when I had her in me. And originally in the script, it was a man psychiatrist. And I said to Alan, Bree would never tell the truth in front of a man, so it's got to be a woman psychiatrist.
MOSLEY: You didn't always see joy in acting. You watched your father...
FONDA: My dad never brought joy home as an actor. There were always problems. And it never occurred to - first of all, I thought I was ugly, fat, and I was extremely shy. It never dawned on me to be an actor. All the way up to when I was about 23 or 24, I didn't know what to do. So I really understand kids today - you know, what do - what to do? What do I want to - I didn't know. It's hard to be young. It's easy to be old...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
FONDA: ...If you're healthy. And...
MOSLEY: But there was...
FONDA: Susan Strasberg said, well, you should take classes with my father. And so I went and met with him, and he said that I seemed very boring.
MOSLEY: And just to tell the audience, her father was a very noted and very well-known acting coach.
FONDA: Lee Strasberg.
MOSLEY: Yes. Yes.
FONDA: And it was Lee's - I took classes with him. And the first time I got up, and after - and he said, you have talent. (Gasping) No, but he had never said that to me. And I remember, it felt like the top of my head came off and birds flew out. Everything changed. And it was in a - on Broadway in some old office building, and I came down in the elevator. I walked outside. I owned the city. New York was mine. And I started then. I didn't do one class. And most people took a class a week. I took four 'cause I didn't want people to say the only reason I worked was 'cause I was Henry Fonda's daughter. And my whole life changed.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Fonda, talking about her life on screen and off. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MICHAEL BISIO QUARTET & RON SODERSTROM'S "A.M.")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Fonda. She's a two-time Academy Award-winning actor, activist and author.
You've been working pretty consistently for the last few decades. But around '91, all the way into the mid-2000s, you retired. You went away from public life. And although you've talked about it, everybody I talk to says, oh, yeah. What was she doing during that time?
FONDA: I was married to Ted Turner.
MOSLEY: Yes.
FONDA: I married - I - from - 10 years, from '90 to 2000. You can't be married to Ted Turner and have another job. That's the job, and it's a full-time job.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
FONDA: And it was great. And I - I'm so grateful that I had 10 - Ted in my life for 10 years 'cause he's the most interesting, fascinating, exciting, wonderful guy.
MOSLEY: This interesting thing has happened to you through your life, though, where there comes a certain point where you outgrow that life. It's like you're becoming more and more Jane as you move through life. Is that a fair way to put it?
FONDA: It's a very astute way. I'm amazed to hear you say that. Yes. Yeah.
MOSLEY: Because you decided to come back to acting after that marriage.
FONDA: Well, I spent five years after the marriage writing my memoir. And at the very end of that writing process, I received a script called "Monster-In-Law." And my best friend produced it, Paula - the late Paula Weinstein, God bless her. And it was a great comeback.
MOSLEY: Yeah. And you've been working pretty consistently after that. One of the projects you're very proud of is "Grace And Frankie," which was a Netflix comedy which ran for seven seasons, starring you and Lily Tomlin, who - you guys have a long history together. I mean, "9 to 5."
FONDA: We've had - we've made three movies together.
MOSLEY: Yes.
FONDA: Yeah.
MOSLEY: In "Grace And Frankie," you're two women in your 70s whose husbands, played by Martin Sheen and Sam Waterston, leave the both of you for each other. And it forces you both into this unlikely close relationship. I want to play a scene from the second season. Grace and Frankie are speaking to their exes and their children about, like, how they feel like they're being mistreated. And this clip has been edited for time. Lily Tomlin speaks first. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GRACE AND FRANKIE")
LILY TOMLIN: (As Frankie) You - you turned me into a little old lady who's losing her mind and shouldn't even be allowed to drive.
FONDA: (As Grace) And I'm just a dupe who couldn't possibly have any good advice to give. And you...
JUNE DIANE RAPHAEL: (As Brianna) Oh, God.
FONDA: (As Grace) You said you wouldn't hire me because I'd overshadow you. But I gave you the first new idea that Say Grace has had since you took over. Well, we gave you the first idea. And you never acknowledged it. You took credit for it, and then you threw Frankie to the curb.
RAPHAEL: (As Brianna) Mom, you try being in business with her.
FONDA: (As Grace) Well, I might. I will. I am.
TOMLIN: (As Frankie) You are.
FONDA: (As Grace) What? Have we talked about it?
TOMLIN: (As Frankie) Oh, yes, we talked about it. What are we doing?
FONDA: (As Grace) What are we doing? I'll tell you what we're doing. We're making vibrators for women with arthritis.
TOMLIN: (As Frankie) Yes, vibrators. Brilliant.
RAPHAEL: (As Brianna) I highly doubt there's a vibrator market for geriatric women with arthritis.
TOMLIN: (As Frankie) There is. I'm in agony.
RAPHAEL: (As Brianna) Seriously, Mom. How do I explain to my children that their grandma makes sex toys for other grandmas?
FONDA: (As Grace) I'll tell you what you can tell them, honey. We're making things for people like us because we are sick and tired of being dismissed by people like you.
TOMLIN: (As Frankie) Mic drop. Let's go home.
MOSLEY: (Laughter) That was my guest today, Jane Fonda, with Lily Tomlin on the show "Grace And Frankie."
FONDA: And June Diane Raphael in there a little bit as...
MOSLEY: Yes.
FONDA: ...My wonderful daughter.
MOSLEY: What has it been like for you playing Grace, playing this character who has so many different notes at that specific age?
FONDA: It was great. It was fun. And, you know, I'm just in awe of Lily Tomlin. I mean, the fact that I got seven years to spend with her, I am deeply grateful. This woman is a true genius. And it was just a great experience. Marta Kauffman - I'm so grateful for her. She came to us and said, I want to make a series with the two of you, and she did it. She created it. It was fun. It was wonderful. I had a nervous breakdown the first season.
MOSLEY: Oh, why? What happened?
FONDA: I hated the first season.
MOSLEY: Why?
FONDA: I dreaded going to work every day. And when it was at the end, I thought, well, what am I going to do? I'm either - I'm going to quit the business for good - and I was seriously old then, and I couldn't have had a comeback - or I guess I'll have to go into therapy and figure it out, and I did.
MOSLEY: What did you figure out?
FONDA: First scene of the first episode, Lily and I, we hate each other. We're at this restaurant, waiting for our husbands, and they arrive. And what do they do? They tell us that they are in love with each other, and they're going to leave us, and they're going to get married to each other. And then the whole rest of the season is about that. How do we recover from that? How do we become friends instead of enemies? - and like that.
And in therapy, what I realized is what it triggered, that first episode in me, was abandonment. And so the whole season was about dealing with abandonment. And I just - it was horrible. And I went into therapy, and I figured it out, and then I fell in love with Grace, and everything from then on was fine.
MOSLEY: What an amazing job you have, that you're able to work through real-life issues through these characters.
FONDA: And you're never too old. You know, I've gone back into therapy now at 87 because I want to figure out why I'm not a better person and why I wasn't a better parent. And I'm figuring it out.
MOSLEY: Wait, so you weren't in therapy, and you came back to therapy.
FONDA: And it all started when I was 60...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
FONDA: ...When I said I didn't want to have regrets. I don't want to have regrets. And so I've gone into therapy. So I won't have any regrets, and I'll understand what's - what it was all about.
MOSLEY: Jane, what do you think it is about you - this quality that you have that you keep striving? - that you're...
FONDA: Resilience. Resilience is such an interesting thing. You know, I think people are born with it. You know, resilience is when a young child who is not getting love at home kind of - there's a radar that's scanning the horizon. If there's a warm body that maybe could love her or teach her something, you go there. You find love where you can. You find support where you can. That's an resilient child. That was me.
MOSLEY: Yeah. But there's also, you know - I mean, the phrases aren't just for anything. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
FONDA: You can.
MOSLEY: Or as you get older, you're set in your ways.
FONDA: Oh, I know.
MOSLEY: Those are all things that...
FONDA: When Ted and I separated, he said to me, people don't change at - after 60. People don't make new friends after 60. Oh, I'm sorry. That's not true (laughter). No, I'm grateful that I have a very vibrant, old life.
MOSLEY: Jane Fonda, this has been such an honor. Thank you so much for taking this time.
FONDA: Tonya, thank you.
MOSLEY: Academy Award-winning actor Jane Fonda. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram, @nprfreshair.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "STUCK IN THE MIDDLE WITH YOU")
GRACE POTTER: (Singing) Well, I don't know why I came here tonight. Got the feeling that something ain't right. I'm so scared in case I fall off my chair. And I'm wondering how I'll get down the stairs. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. Yes, I'm stuck in the middle with you. And I'm wondering what it is...
MOSLEY: FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "STUCK IN THE MIDDLE WITH YOU")
POTTER: (Singing) Please. Yes, I'm stuck in the middle with you. And I'm wondering what it is I should do. Is it cool if I just sleep on the floor 'cause I don't think I can take anymore. All these clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. I got clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle, stuck, stuck in the middle with you.
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